Reply to Jonathan CHM to his Endless Rant on the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and Speaking in Tongues

Those of you who keep up with this blog have noted the numerous posting of “Jonathan CHM” on my post Charismatic Anglicans: The Missing Link against things that go on in “Charismatic” churches. I’ve let him have space on this blog, and now it’s time to reply.

First: I’ve received “heads-up” from another one of his victims that he is in fact a spammer, and repeats his rant on blog after blog. The blog that gave me the heads up isn’t, AFAIK, a “full Gospel” kind of place, strictly speaking. The truth is that, if Jonathan CHM is as positive as he says he is about these things, he should start his own blog and rant on, trackbacking the rest of us.

I have more patience than many with this kind of behaviour, but it has its limits. So be forewarned!

In spite of his annoying delivery method, he’s raised some serious issues. Unfortunately, he shares one common fault with many Pentecostal and Charismatic ministers: he thinks that, the longer he goes on, the more he proves his case. It can and will be shown that precisely the opposite is true, that the longer he goes on the more often he contradicts himself.

Let’s start with the big issue: his contention that Charismatic churches blaspheme the Holy Spirit by doing things in God’s name that aren’t from God. Anyone with any hermeneutical sense knows that he has turned the whole business of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit upside down. The Pharisees contended that Jesus had done his miracles by the power of Satan, and Jesus’ response was to elucidate the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and the unforgivability of same. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of God to the Evil One, and once you’ve done that, there’s no recovery. But Jonathan CHM is saying just the opposite, which is absurd.

One thing that needs to be mentioned is this: too much that goes on in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is automatically said to come directly from the Throne Room when in fact it may or may not. In years past, revivalists like Charles Finney were able to actually advance their methods (and win souls in the process) without having to attribute everything they did as a direct command from heaven. But we live in a different era now. Personally I think this is dangerous, and have discussed this issue relative to prophecy. But blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Hardly.

As I mentioned before, a stronger case can be made that resisting the operation of the spiritual gifts is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, especially if the resisters are brazen enough (and many are) to attribute these works to the Evil One. But that possibility doesn’t seem to have crossed Jonathan CHM’s mind. Neither does it cross his mind that, in denying the present reality of the spiritual gifts and the miraculous, he is calling for a change in dispensation from the days of the original apostles, which in turn undermines the completeness of what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross.

The best way to fix this problem is to get away from “self-validating” leadership in any form. On the day of Pentecost, Peter said that Jesus was accredited with the signs and wonders that he did. The New Testament speaks of the importance of multiple witnesses to a wide variety of important things. Just because someone says they’re a prophet, or have gift X, doesn’t mean they actually do. But that’s an issue of discernment and pastoral wisdom. To throw out the idea of the miraculous wholesale—as Jonathan CHM and many others advocate—just because we have structural deficiencies in our churches is absurd.

But back to the rant. After, to his own mind, establishing that Charismatic churches routinely blaspheme the Holy Spirit, criticises them for “their non-repentance.” But why should they? The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable! According to Jonathan, they’re toast in eternity! Such a contradiction makes one wonder just how serious he is about this.

Turning to the issue of the nature of the tongues, he undercuts himself by citing 1 Corinthians 14:2. But this is a mistake on his part. If a tongue is only known to God, then it can’t be a human language, because someone down here knows it. I don’t know the state of foreign language education in the mysterious Orient from which Jonathan rants, but just because we don’t know a foreign language doesn’t mean it’s only known to God. That sounds like the lame brain excuses we here on this side of the Pacific on why Americans are so challenged in their foreign language education and skills. I expect better from a part of the world where primary and secondary education is on the whole better and more cost-effective than it is here.

Turning to the issue of tongues and interpretation, I’m a member of the oldest continuing Pentecostal church in North America, and we have tongues and interpretations of same on a regular basis. Just because some churches aren’t doing this on a Biblical basis doesn’t change the Biblical basis.

As far as prophecies of the end times, all of us know that it isn’t ours to know the date of the end. People who set forth specific times are simply wrong. But this isn’t restricted to Charismatic churches, and in fact Charismatic churches aren’t the worst offenders in this regard (just consider the Jehovah’s Witnesses.)

The one good thing that has come out of this is that it has given me an opportunity to address some significant issues that go the core of the modern Pentecostal movement. But, unless Jonathan CHM finds a better delivery method for his endless rant, he’ll find (and probably has elsewhere) that the rant will in fact come to an end.

42 thoughts on “Reply to Jonathan CHM to his Endless Rant on the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and Speaking in Tongues”

  1. The following are the proves that angels could perform miracles healing and there are falling angels in the Scripture to be against God too:

    John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”

    Angels could perform marvellous wonders:

    Luke 1:7, “And they had no child, because that Elizabeth was barren and they both were now well stricken in years.” Luke 1:13, “but the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for their prayer is heard; and they wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John”. Luke 1:18, “And Zacharias said unto the angel, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my life well stricken in years.” Luke 1:19, “And THE ANGEL ANSWERING UNTO HIM, I AM GRABRIEL…” Luke 1:20, “AND BEHOLD, THOU SHALL BE DUMB, AND NOT ABLE TO SPEAK, UNTIL THE DAY THAT THESE THINGS SHALL BE PERFORMED, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” Luke 1:22, “And when he came out, HE COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO THEM”.

    Matthews 28:1-2, “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Many Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And, behold, THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, FOR AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, AND AME AND ROLLED BACK THE STONE OF THE DOOR, and sat it.”

    Acts 12:23, “Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”

    Angels could appear in somebody’s dream: Matthews 2:19, “…an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph…”; Matthew 1:20, “…an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream…”

    As angels could perform wonders, are there any strongest proves to show that those wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God? If you could prove it, we have to accept it. However, if you could not prove whether the existence of wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God or the Holy Spirit or Angels, there is a danger that one would comment that certain wonders are from God or from the Holy Spirit or from Jesus Christ and, in case, they are not and it turns up that we have forced God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit to bear the name of doer and indirectly we have abused the name of Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit and this causes us to speak against Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit indirectly.

    1. The fact that angels–good and bad–perform miracles doesn’t really prove anything.

      In the case of good angels, they’re empowered by God, and are God’s agents on the earth when they act.

      In the case of evil angels (demons,) they do have some residual power, so they can perform the counterfeit kinds. In the last days this power is attributed to the Antichrist.

      Miracles, per se, aren’t intended to be “stand alone.” When Jesus was on the earth, his powerful miracles were accompanied by powerful (and righteous) teaching. Since he promised us that we would do greater works (not better, I might hastily add) it also makes sense that the miracles we perform in his name be accompanied by correct teaching (in accordance with God’s Word) and righteous living.

  2. A good Christian or Catholics performs a wonder through the name of Jesus Christ in the Church. Many audiences would claim that this be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit. As fallen angels could perform wonders, i.e. Buddhists could perform wonders as it is listed in the Internet too. What if the wonders in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, the surrounding audience that claims to be the work of the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus Christ, would have indirectly abused the name of each of them even though they might not be the one to do it and it indirectly causes the defamation of the name of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit and they might have grieved as a result of the whole church speaking against them since they might not do it. The abusing of the name of Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit/God would cause the audience to commit continual sins as when and they address these be the work of God.
    Can a Christian or a Catholics claim that he has followed the correct teaching and righteous living when day by day and month by month and year by year seeing people keep on claiming the wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit without telling them the danger that they would have sinned against God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit what if the so-called, wonders, might not be their work then?

  3. For holy bark, you could see people running around the churches crazily to bark here and there.

    For Holy laughter, you could see people laugh without stopping.

    For manifestation of the Spirit, you see people roll from one place to another without knowing what he/she has done after performing.

    All these are not mentioned in the book of Acts.

    A number of people in the church mention that they receive revelation from God through words of knowledge, prophecy, tongues speaking, words of wisdom. Many prophets arose previously claimed that year 2000 and 1987 were the end of the world. However, the year before year 2000 and 1987, none of these people that claim to receive so-called, special gifts of the Holy Spirit, say that these years 2000 and 1987 are not the end of the world. If it is the work of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit should have informed all these people to correct their mistakes.

  4. As far as who is performing miracles is concerned, perhaps this should be noted: “Thereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”” Luke 9:49, 50, TCNT.

    And this is relevant to the discussion: “An attempt was made by some itinerant Jews, who were exorcists, to use the Name of the Lord Jesus over those who had wicked spirits in them. “I adjure you,” they would say, “by the Jesus, whom Paul preaches.” The seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish Chief Priest, were doing this; But the wicked spirit answered them: “Jesus I acknowledge, and Paul I know, but you–who are you?” Then the man, in whom this wicked spirit was, sprang upon them, mastered both of them, and so completely overpowered them, that they fled out of the house, stripped of their clothes, and wounded.” Acts 19:13-16, TCNT.

    As far as the predictions of the end times, the Holy Spirit has already informed these people to correct their mistakes: “But about ‘That Day,’ or ‘The Hour,’ no one knows–not even the angels in Heaven, nor yet the Son–but only the Father. See that you are on the watch; for you do not know when the time will be.” Mark 13:32, 33, TCNT.

  5. As far as who is performing miracles is concerned, perhaps this should be noted: “Thereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”” Luke 9:49, 50, TCNT

    Were these people that were mentioned above that did not follow Jesus to be the disciples of Jesus?

    The following are the verses to prove that God’s people would surely follow Jesus:

    John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

    John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out”.

    From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.

    As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.

  6. Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.

  7. The following is the proof that casting out demons might not necessarily cause one to have disturbed by demons:

    Matthew 17:15-16, “Lord have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.” Matthew 17:18-19, “And Jesus rebuked the devil and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, ‘Why could not we cast him out?’ ” Matthew 17:21, “Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” From these verses, it is obvious that the failure in casting out demons might not necessarily cause one to be disturbed by demons as that is mentioned in Luke 9:49-50.

    The verses below show that angels could perform miraculous healing:

    John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.””

    From John 5:3-4, it shows that angels could heal various kinds of illnesses whether they are blinded, halt and withered. As angels could perform miraculous healings and there are so-called, fallen angels, it is irrational to jump into conclusion that certain illnesses be healed to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit since some wonders might be the work of angels and/or fallen angels.

    You might have quoted Luke 9:49-50 well that nobody should stop those people that perform miracles in Jesus’ name. However, you have to meditate Matthew 7:22-23 carefully again that the so-called people to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders might be rejected by the Lord. For instance, if these people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders are the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, there should not be any strong ground for Jesus to reject them. However, Jesus will reject them despite they do perform wonders in Jesus’ name and there is a query the so-called wonders that they perform are from God. The following are the extracts:

    Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!’

  8. Charismatic people say that they believe in Jesus Christ. However, they depend mostly on their emotions; their sights of miracles; and whatever they could visualize from their sights. Whenever they feel and see the existence of some forms of power and they say that there is God. When they could not see any miracles or wonders or their emotions are down, they say that God is not with them. They claim that they receive the Holy Spirit due to they say that they feel something passing through their bodies. All in all they claim that they are saved and yet all these are done through feelings. Their salvations are in doubt and they might not be saved since salvation is through faith and not feeling. What good does it bring about if the number of Charismatic churches has been expanding! Many are non-Christians and a few are true Christians. Now the underlying problem is we, the true Church, must be strengthened in Biblical knowledge and not to be affected by false teachings.

    Sad to say they are blinded by evil forces. No doubt they might be rejected by the Lord as mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 for their foolishness of hearts.

  9. The rant is endless…

    What you say is a sweeping generalisation. Additionally, it depends upon the idea that salvation consists solely in our status in heaven and does not affect our condition on the earth.

    It’s true that salvation ultimately relates to our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross. That’s what the ministry I work for teaches people when we teach them how to lead people to Christ (in Pentecostal churches, I might add!) But when we are saved God comes and dwells in us and makes us new creatures. It’s difficult to say that, over the coruse of time, one doesn’t feel something at this result.

    If we say that salvation consists solely of having our name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, then we are saying that we can live in any way and still be saved. But if God is in us this will not be the case.

  10. Faith is the substance of hope of what is unseen and/or what would have occurred. If a person relies mainly on his feeling to say that there is God, his belief contradicts the principality of faith in the Scripture.

  11. LUKE 9:49-50 ABOUT THOSE THAT DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS BUT COULD PERFORM WONDERS IN JESUS’ NAME

    Luke 9:49, 50 (TCNT), “Hereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”

    Were these people that were mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 to be the disciples of Jesus since it is mentioned that they did not follow Jesus?

    The following are the verses to prove that God’s people would surely follow Jesus:

    John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

    John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out”.

    From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.

    As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.
    Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following Jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.

  12. Evidently you are stuck on Luke 9:49, 50. But that’s the way it is with the Word of God:

    “God’s Message is a living and active power, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing its way till it penetrates soul and spirit–not the joints only but the very marrow–and detecting the inmost thoughts and purposes of the mind. There is no created thing that can hide itself from the sight of God. Everything is exposed and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we have to give account.” Hebrews 4:12, 13, TCNT.

    I think there are two issues here you are trying to conflate.

    The first is that there are people who follow Jesus and people who don’t. There’s no argument about that.

    The second is that this status is knowable. And that’s where things get complicated. Knowable to whom? Obviously God knows the status. But did the disciples? And do we?

    There are some situations which are easier than others to make an accurate determination. But ultimately we must confess that only God knows one way or another.

  13. The following are the proves that God considers blasphemy against God is a severe sin (I give these examples below but it does not mean I believe Christians will lose salvations but that to God, it is a sin):

    Leviticus 24:15, “And thou shalt speak with the children of Israel, saying, whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.”

    Leviticus 24:16, “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.”

    Exodus 20:7, “(one of the Ten Commandments) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.”

    For the saints,

    Luke 18:6-9, “And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust saith. And SHALL NOT GOD AVENGE HIS OWN ELECT, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily…”

    Romans 14:10-12, “…For WE SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. For it is written: As I live, I say, ‘the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God SO THAT EACH OF US SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT TO GOD.”

  14. 1 Corinth 3:9 is about Christians might lose rewards as a result of punishment and yet they will be saved:

    1 Corinth 3:9, “For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building”. 1 Corinth 3:11-15, “…Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire WILL TEST EACH ONE’S WORK, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. IF ANYONE’S WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, and yet so as through fire.”

  15. Contemporary Charismatic Churches support pre-millennium, mid-millennium, post-millennium and etc. However, the so-called, manifestation of the Holy Spirit in contemporary Charismatic Churches does not stop them to support these theories and there is a query whether the so-called, manifestation of the Holy Spirit in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God.

    The following is the reason about my comment:

    Rev 22:18-19, “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of this prophecy of book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

    As the phrase, shall add, is mentioned in Rev 22:18-19 with the phrase, God shall add unto him the plagues, it implies that God demands us, Christians, not to add any words into the book of Revelation. As the phrase, shall take away from…this prophecy, is mentioned in Rev 22:18-19 with the phrase, shall take away his part out of the book of life, it implies that God forbids Christians to remove anything from the book of Revelation.

    The interpretation of the Revelation that Jesus would come in Rev chapter 6 before the tribulation; or Jesus would come in Rev 20 after tribulation; and/or etc., implies that one has added words into the book of Revelation and that should be forbidden as mentioned in Rev 22:18-19. What if Jesus would come at some part of Revelation instead of in Rev 6, those Christians that insist he would come in Rev 6 has added words into God’s mouth that Jesus would come in Rev 6 even though Rev 6 does not mention it. The worse is some would link up the Book of Daniel and/or any other books to the book of Revelation. What if the actual interpretation of God for the revelation is not like this, these Christians have acted contradictorily to Rev 22:18-19 to add words into God’s mouth that God’s prophecy should be so but indeed God does not mean it.

    The same is for those that interpets Rev 13, the 666 to be the anti-christ. Nothing is mentioned in Rev 13 that 666 is for anti-christ and yet one links the word, anti-christ in 1 John 1 to be the one in Rev 13. What if God’s interpretation for 666 in Rev 13 not to be for anti-christ, we, Christians, simply force God to accept the so-called, 666, in Rev 13 to be anti-christ then.

    To my personal opninion, we, Christians, must leave the book of Revelation not to be interpreted so as we would not violate Rev 22:18-19. The reason is we, Christians, would have added words to God’s mouth in case if the book of Revelation, to God’s interpretation is another way instead of following our own interpretation.

  16. Jonathan CHM, I have not responded to you because I have had more urgent matters to attend do, esp. regarding atheism.

    I think your application of the Book of Daniel to Rev. 22:18-19 will not fly for two reasons.

    The first is that Daniel antedates Revelation by several hundred years. So, if there’s a subsequent addition going on, it’s Revelation.

    The second is that both Daniel and Revelation are both the Word of God. We are not to add to God’s Word, but God certainly can and did until the Sacred Scriptures were closed.

    Pre-, mid- and post-tribulationalism, along with pre-, post- an a-millenialism, are all independent of the Charismatic Renewal, as anyone who has a Schofield Bible will attest. These theories likewise compete in non-Charismatic circles. Also competing in non-Charismatic circles are ideas on the relationship between Daniel and Revelation. So these problems are not the exclusive province (nor originated) with Charismatic churches. Many of these have their origins in Darby, who antedates modern Pentecost.

    I do think that all revelation we have today much be in concord with God’s Word. There are those who think that things such as homosexuality have been legitimised by “the move of the Holy Spirit,” but I cannot accept this.

  17. Glad to receive your reply pertaining to this matter. My reasoning is simply that for instance, if the so-called, tongues speaking, thef gift of prophecy, the gift of Word of Knowledge, the gift of wisdom, and etc., in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God, they would have warned all Christians among their Churches not to interpret the book of prophecy especially the book of Revelation.

    They refer Rev 6; 8:1-2 as the first half of tribulation; and the Great Tribulation to be for Rev 8; 9; 11:15 as well as Rev 15:16. Pre-tribulation supports that Christians will be raptured before Rev 6 since they believe that Christians would not go through tribulation; Post-tribulation supports that Chrstians would be raptured after Rev 16 and perhaps in Rev 20; mid-tribulation assumes that Christians would be raptured in the middle of the book of Rev. All these interpretations have indeed abused the book of Revelation in which Rev 22:18-19 command us not to add words in the book of Prophecy and yet the so-called, manifestation of the Holy Spirit in contemporary Charismatic Churches, should have warned Christians not to violate the book of Revelation on the condition if their so-called, gifts, are from God. As mentioned in the Scripture, the Holy Spirit will guide us for the truth of the Scripture and yet the so-called, gifts, in current world do not correct the mistakes in interpreting the book of Revelation, there is a question whether the so-called, gifts, in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God. What if in God’s interpretation that Christians would be raptured in Rev 6 instead of Rev 20, our insisting the support that God would be raptured in Rev 6 would have added words into God’s mouth for the comment that Christians would be raptured at that time even though Rev 6 does not mention Christians would be raptured at that time. The same for mid- and post-tribulation too. They even relate Rev 12:3, 13 to be the rise of Antichrist. Nothing is mentioned in the book of Rev 12:3, 13 that the so-called, 666, is the antichrist and yet one has related the word, antichrist, in 1 John 1 to be that is mentioned in Rev 12:3, 13. What if God’s interpretation for Rev 12:3, 13 not to be antichrist instead of some other thing, the insisting that Rev 12:3, 13 have undoubtedly added words into God’s mouth that Rev 12:3, 13 were antichrist.

    Rev 22:18-19, “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of this prophecy of book…” As the phrase, this prophecy of book, in Rev 22:18-19 is in singular tense, it implies a single book instead of other books and it certainly refers to the book of Revelation undoubted.

    Some might relate Daniel 2:42-44 for the rist of antichrist and that would occur during the tribulation and that falls within Rev 6-16. The word, antichrist, is not spelt out clearly in the book of Revelation. The insisting that antichrist would come during Rev 6-16 has undoubtedly added words into God’s mouth what if God’s interpretation of the prophecy is not in this way but in other alternative way.

    For instance, if one relates Rev 22:18-19 to be in broader terms and this incudes other prophecy in the Bible too. To interpret Daniel 2:42-44 to be the rise of antichrist would certainly act against Rev 22:18-19 since one has added words into Daniel 2:42-44 especially the word, antichrist, is not mentioned in Daniel 2:42-44. One has simply related the word, antichrist, from 1 John 1 to Daniel 2:42-44. What if God’s interpretation of Daniel 2:42-44 not to be antichrist, one has added words into God’s mouth to force him to accept this interpration.

  18. If the Holy Spirit has guided them for the interpretation of the book of Prophecy, it surely leads us for a certainty of the interpretation of the Scripture and it would not lead us to be in doubt whether Jesus will come in Rev 6, or Rev 20, or etc. If one has treated the so-called, 666, in Rev 13 to be the anti-christ, what leads to the conclusion that Rev 13 should be so and not others when Rev 13 does not mention that the so-called, 666, is antichrist?

  19. If you mention that you’ll do not add any words in the prophecy, you are right in the sense that what we receive the explanation of the prophecy has been passed down from the past and you’ll did not and do not add any words in it. I was once a victim of it that I too support all those that are not mentioned in the Scripture that were passed down from our predecessors. Now, I realise the mistake and I repent.

    As the word, he, is mentioned throughout Rev 13:12-18 and Rev 13:18 refers it to the so-called, 666. The lists as mentioned between Rev 13:12-18 must be the characteristics of the so-called, 666. The following are the extracts:

    Rev 13;12, “…he exercises all the authority of the first beasts…”
    Rev 13:13, “He performs great signs…”
    Rev 13:14, “…he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs…”
    Rev 13:15, “He…cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.”
    Rev 13:16, “…he causes all…to receive a mark on the right hand or on their foreheads”.
    Rev 13:17, “…no man buy or sell except one has the mark on their right hand or their foreheads.”

    The following are the characteristics of antichrists:

    1 John 2:18, “…now are there many antichristts..”
    1 John 2:19 is the continuation of 1 John 2:18 and this shows his further characteristics as:
    1 John 2:19, “They went out from us…”.
    1 John 2:19, “…they were not of us…”.
    1 John 2:22, “Who is a liar but he that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”
    1 John 4:3, “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist…”. The same is mentioned in 2 John 1:7, “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    From the above comparisons, I apologize that I could not explain the relationship between these two in the past and I decide not to deal with it few years ago so as not to violate Rev 22:18-19. I seek your brilliant advice on how these two different characteristics can be related with each other in which I, being ignorant, could not figure out myself.

    Contemporary Charismatic Churches say that they are the one that could receive direct revelation from God and surely they should be the first to receive advice from God for the mistakes that have passed down from the past and yet, they did not warn us not to violate Rev 22:18-19 and there is a query whether their so-called, gifts, are from God since the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to guide us for the truth of the Bible.

  20. I think there are a few things to be noted here.

    First, one must make the distinction between “the Antichrist” of the very end times and “antichrists” that run around today and have been doing so since the Apostles. That solves some of the dilemma between 1 John 2 and Revelation 13.

    That having been said, the identification of “666” is not entirely clear. It could be either “the Antichrist” or “the false prophet”–and those are just the most likely candidates. As the pretribulational J. Vernon McGee points out, “I would suggest that we not waste our time trying to identify a person by this number. Instead, we need to present Jesus Christ that we might reduce the population of those who have to go through the Great Tribulation Period, who will therefore know what the number of the Beast is.”

    The problem with Charismatic and Pentecostal churches along these lines is that they have uncritically adopted many things from their non-full Gospel Evangelical predecesssors which more careful examination would have led them to avoid. I’ve discussed at length the issue of the nature of the Eucharist, but there are other subjects as well. You say that they should have received revelation from the Holy Spirit on these subjects, but a) they may not be listening and b) those who came before them and are so dogmatic on these subjects should have also.

    Putting it another way, we should avoid the mistake that Moses Maimonides used to attribute to Christian and Muslim scholars, as quoted here:

    http://www.vulcanhammer.org/my-lord-and-my-god-a-layman-looks-at-the-deity-of-christ-and-the-nature-of-the-godhead/

  21. Pre-tribulation theory supports that Christians would not suffer tribultion and they support that Christians would be raptured before Rev 7 and that is Rev 6. However, the word, rapture, and not even its meaning is in Rev 6 to indicate that Christians would be raptured there. For post-tribulation, they support that Christians would be raptured after tribulation and that is after Rev 7-14 and that falls at Rev 20. However, there is no clear indication in the book of Revelation that Christians would be raptured there.
    As Rev 22:18-19 warns us not to be out-smart to manipulate God’s words.
    If you would have bought the book of prophecy before year 2000, or year 1987 and/or etc., you would discover that contemporary Charismatic Churches point to 666 as truly antichrist. Not only that, they even relate the book of prophecy to the fulfilment of the end of the world. Recalling the year before 2000 that they use the book of Revelation to prophesy that a comet that could hit this earth that would cause the end of the world. Not only that, not only that I bought a book from contemporary Charismatic Churches that encourage Christians to prophesy and they mention that prophecy from God needed not necessarily be fulfilled. God certainly has foreknowledge about the future. As He knows the future, how could there be prophecy from Him can never be fulfilled then unless their so-called, gifts, are not from God and that would result prophecies not to be fulfilled then.

  22. You’re correct in saying that the rapture isn’t mentioned in Revelation 6. It’s described in 1 Thessalonians 4. And, of course, there are those who are pre-tribulational and post-tribulational. So where do you think that this event should take place?

    Problem is, both of these ideas and others that you have harangued about on this blog antedate Charismatic churches. Yet these non-Charismatic people can be very dogmatic about their positions. Why, then, don’t you go after them as well? How do you think the Charismatics got these ideas in the first place?

  23. I know that you are not charismatic. My idea is that Contemporary Charismatic people that they are those that could receive revelation from God, they should be the first to correct our mistakes. Do you find it surprisingly that they receive material blessing wherever they pray and not spiritual blessing? According to the Scripture, the Holy Spirit will definitely emphasize on spiritual blessing instead of material wise. There is a query whether the so-called, manifestation of the Spirit, is from God when they do not receive any instruction from the Holy Spirit to correct all mistakes and this is not minor mistake but major mistake.

  24. Contemporary Charismatic Churches have their derivation from latter rain doctrine that was established around world-wide two.

    Latter rain doctrine supports that miracles must be done by laying hands and the charismatic people now experience is stronger than that was in the book of Acts whereby they classified as the first rain. They support that miracles must be done through laying hands. However, in the scripture the Apostles could perform without laying hands and it proves that their miracles are stronger than now since contemporary Charismatic Churches could not perform miracles apart from laying hands. If the so-called, gifts of the Holy Spirit, in the Charismatic Churches is from God, surely the Holy Spirit would inform them that miracles could be performed by God even without laying lands and yet there is no sign of instruction from the Spirit to them and that proves that their so-called, manifestation of the Spirit, might not be from God.

    The following are the extracts that the apostles could perform miracles without laying hands:

    Acts 9:32-34, “Now it came to pass, as Peter went through all parts of the country, that he also dwelt in Lydda. There he found a certain man named Aeneas, who had been bedrideen eight years and was paralysed. And Peter said to him, ‘Aereas, Jesus Christ heals you. Arise and make your bed’. Then he arose immediately.”

    Acts 9;36-37, “At Joppa, there was a certain disciple named Tahitha, which is translated Dorcas…she became sick and died when they had washed her, they land her in an upper room. Acts 9:39-40, “Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments with Dorcas had made while she was with them. But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, Tabitha, arise’. And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up”.

    Acts 14:8-10, “And in Lystra a certasin man wihout strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, ‘Stand up straight on your feet!’ And he leaped and walked.”

  25. First: although the church I attend now is a “Classical Pentecostal” church, it’s a stretch to say that I’m not Charismatic at all. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still valid today as they were during the days of the Apostles. If this were not the case, we would be talking about a dispensational change, which cannot be the case.

    There are some aspects, however, where I probably differ from many Charismatics that you have run across.

    First, I am very reluctant to say that something is from God unless I am completely positive that it is the case. It bothers me that so many people so glibly say that “such and such is from the Lord” when one is hard pressed to agree with the statement. I heard a speech by Tommy Tenney one night where he spoke about such statements; he mused that God probably looks on them and thinks, “Where did I say that?” I don’t want God to be looking on things I say and claim are in His name and come to such a conclusion.

    Second, they have material blessings first because they ask for them first. Personally I think that spiritual blessings are more important, but then again I was raised in Palm Beach and have lived a life of without poverty. I think that Matthew 6:33 applies here, but I try very hard not to judge others on this.

    Third, I agree that the laying on of hands is not necessary for healings and other miracles to take place. What is necessary is for the power of God through Jesus Christ to be there. Once that’s the case, then one’s shadow is enough, as it was for Peter. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with laying on of hands and it’s not a bad way to pray for someone else (when done properly,) but I don’t think that there is anything intrinsically powerful in the laying on of hands. One practice I really dislike in Charismatic churches is the tendency for people to wait for some super preacher to show up and pray for miracles. The Spirit of God is resident amongst his people; we shouldn’t have to wait for some “super saint” to come along, we should be doing the praying.

  26. God does not discourage Christians to judge but we judge inside and that is among Christians and not outside. The following is the extract:

    1 Corinth 5:12-13, “For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? BUT THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE GOD JUDGES. Therefore, ‘put away from yourselves that wicked person”.

  27. Latter rain doctrine supports that contemporary Charismatic Churches experience the stronger manifestation of the Holy Spirit since they treat the so-called, gifts, nowadays to be the latter rain and that the manfestation of the Spirit during the book of Acts to be the first rain. However, the Apostle Paul was not hurt even when he was attacked by poisonous snake. However, contemporary Charismatic healers could not even handle poisonous snakes.

    Mark 16:18, “they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them…”

    Some Christians might not believe Mark 16:18. However, it is mentioned in the four Gospel that our God is omnipotent and nothing is impossible for him to do it. The following is the extract that Paul was not hurt when he was bitten by a snake:

    Acts 28:3-6, “But when paul had gathered a hundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened itself on his hand. So when the primitive people saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to another, ‘No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped from sea, yet justice does not allow to live’. BUT HE SHOOK THE CREATURE INTO THE FIRE AND SUFFERED NO HARM. However, THEY WERE EXPECTING THAT HE WOULD SWELL UP OR SUDDENLY FALL DOWN DEAD; but after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.”

    As Paul was not hurt even the snake attacked him, there is a query whether the current so-called, manifestation of the Spirit, is from God since they could not even handle poisonous snakes.

  28. I live within 50 km of the beginning of snake handling, which too place about 100 years ago. You’re right about one thing: the Latter Rain and the Charismatic Renewal don’t do snake handling. But there are those that do.

  29. 1 Corinth 12:7, “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all”. As the phrase, profit of all, is mnetioned in 1 Corinth 12:7 with the phrase, the manifestation of the Spirit, it implies that all manifestations of the Spirit will definitely benefit all Christians. As all manifestation of the Spirit will benefit all Christians, these put the following practices in contemporary Charismatic Churches in question whether they are from God since the following lists seem not to benefit all Christians but the performers or each recipient himself/herself:
    a) the so-called, feeling the presence of God, through the emotion about something hot or cold moving inside the body;
    b) Holy bark in which a person could bark without reasoning;
    c) Holy laughter in which a person could keep on laughing without a cause;
    d) the so-called, manifestation of the Spirit, in which the people would fall down unconciously or these people to have their bodies to roll from one end to another without exerting energy in performing it;
    e) and many others.
    As there is a query whether the above manifestation of the Spirit in each person could benefit all Christians, there is a query whether the so-called, manifestation of the Spirit, in Charismatic Churches is from God since it contradicts 1 Corinth 12:7 that mentions that manifestation of the Spirit should be meant for all Christians.

  30. Actually God does reveal to me the sign of the end of the world through the Bible but not from any prophecies from the Bible, such as, Revelation, Daniel and etc. In the Scripture, he shows a clear sign and a plain explanation about the sign of the end of the world without any complication. If I would show you which part of the Bible shows that, you would feel that it is so easily to understand and yet surprisingly, it is hidden in the Bible that nobody except me has discovered. I will reveal it in the future and may a number of years later through email instead of through Internet since there should be a cause for God in hiding the truth of end of the world to the public and that I do not know. Trust my ver words as I am a Christian that eagerly to deliver the right message of God.

  31. Special, private revelation! Now that’s something that sounds like something the Charismatics WOULD do!

  32. I am not from Charismatic churches. Do you know that our God is not a God of confusion. He would tell you a plain explanation about the end of the world of what is to come. No word is added but purely extracted from the Bible other than the books of prophecies, such as, Revelation and etc.

  33. Never mind! In time to come when you see my email, examination of every part of the words from the Scripture to check whether God does show us a plain explanation about the end of the world without complication from the Bible.

  34. To show that I do not lie to you, I furnish below the extract that I do not add words of the prophecy and yet the Scripture explains clearly about the future:

    2 Timothy 3:1   This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 Timothy 3:2   For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    2 Timothy 3:3   Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    2 Timothy 3:4   Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    2 Timothy 3:5   Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    2 Timothy 3:6   For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

    2 Timothy 3:7   Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Hint: There is one verse in the Scripture that explains the end of the world and the verse is very plain. I would not explain you much since I would include in the notes in the future for my email.

  35. Jonathan CHM, I don’t believe that you are a liar. But there are some aspects of your latest comments that bother me.

    The first is that you plan to subtract Daniel and Revelation from your idea of how the world will end. By your method, that amounts to subtracting from God’s Word, which is violation of the Rev. 22 scripture you cite regularly. The whole purpose of books such as Daniel and Revelation are to instruct us on the end, and just because we are poor–or overzealous–students doesn’t change that.

    Second, you say that “God does show us a plain explanation about the end of the world without complication from the Bible.” Without complication from the Bible? What does that mean? Does it mean you will proceed to the Qur’an, or another source? I’ve been through one long email back and forth with a Salafi Muslim from your part of the world. Should I brace myself for another?

    You also say that “Actually God does reveal to me the sign of the end of the world through the Bible but not from any prophecies from the Bible…” Isn’t that a claim of special revelation? That’s the problem with these Charismatic churches; they claim special revelation when sometimes they have it and sometimes they don’t.

    What you need to do is to start your own website and publish these things and defend them.

  36. I am not muslim but a Christian. My friend, Ramla, indeed uses my email to send to muslims’ world for dialogue and I indeed have quarrelled with him to stop him from abusing my email address.

  37. If I am not wrong, my friend, Ramla, uses another name called, Mohammad Naki, for the abuse.

  38. I have called Ramla, my friend, to clarify in the Islamic world that I am not Muslim but Christian yesterday. I told him to use his own email to apologize and yet he told me he, scared! Never mind! I would simply apologize here to all muslim people and this message has been read by muslim people ever.

  39. Believe me and I am not telling lies that there is a verse in the Bible that shows how the end of the world to be and I will not publicise in any comments here or there.

    Only those people that believe what I say and bother to read through my notes from email that I would send out a number of years later will know what is happening at the end time.

    The verse itself is very plain. Even if I would show it to you, one glance you would know how the end of the world would be and I do not need to explain the sequence of the end of the world.

    Those that do not believe wha I say. Never mind! Let’s the message from the end of the world to be sealed from them and they would know nothing what would come forth.

  40. “But first be assured of this:–There is no prophetic teaching found in Scripture that can be interpreted by man’s unaided reason; for no prophetic teaching ever came in the old days at the mere wish of man, but men, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke direct from God.” 2 Peter 1:20, 21, TCNT.

    “The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise, as some count slowness; but he is forbearing with you, as it is not his will that any of you should perish, but that all should be brought to repentance. The Day of the Lord will come like a thief; and on that day the heavens will pass away with a crash, the elements will be burnt up and dissolved, and the earth and all that is in it will be disclosed. Now, since all these things are in the process of dissolution, think what you yourselves ought to be–what holy and pious lives you ought to lead, while you await and hasten the coming of the Day of God. At its coming the heavens will be dissolved in fire, and the elements melted by heat, but we look for ‘new heavens and a new earth,’ where righteousness shall have its home, in fulfilment of the promise of God.” 2 Peter 3:9-13, TCNT.

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